Hi all, Seemed like the place to ask this, apologies if not. Own an 86' 162st with original engine, its done 400k now and is buggered, still runs but just worn out. Bought a "still runs" 89' 3sge gen 1 with 200k on it ($700Aussie to my door for engine, box, headers and all the bits not bad) The question: If my going to bother redoing an engine, i want more power. 100kw at the wheel seems like a reasonable ask. So am i better off working my replacement gen 1 or buying a newer gen motor with higher stock power? I know there's a lot of variables, but given those choices which would be smarter? Ive done plenty of Googling but i felt asking you guys would be much clearer. Cheers.
Hi Alexg, welcome to the forum Whereabouts in Aus are you? To get the ~25% more power that you want from your Gen 1 it's going to need a full rebuild with some aftermarket performance parts and probably some machine work too. Have a read of Mafix's guide to modifying the 3S-GE here, and Terry from Road & Track's article here to get an idea of what you'll be up for. Alternatively, a stock Gen 3 GE will give you a little over 100 at the wheels without having to open it up, a BEAMS even more. As for your final question; There are no right or wrong answers, the smartest solution for you is the one that fits your budget, timeline, and overall objectives. Cheers Matt
Cheers for the reply Matt! Im up on the central coast, so not too far from you. I had a read of the na power article, havent checked out the other one yet. I had planned on an overhaul kit, pistons, rings, bearings and rods. good injectors, head service/groved valves. cams probably stay standard. extractors + intake work. tune to run 98. If im going to drop $$$ on a motor i was just trying to gauge cost-wise which would be smarter. gen1 + lots of work. or gen3 ect with simply some clean-up work, and possibly better gains for less work comparably. At the moment its all sitting there waiting for my decision, just working out which would be a wiser choice. I have no problems about doing some work either way, ive got pretty well everything i could need (except lots of money ha) i just see no point in replacing my whole damn engine if im just "reviving" the car and not letting it live a little. Otherwise id just sell it and get something that just works normally!!! Ill check out that Road and Track article. Thanks mate!
Fair enough point, 100kW was bleeding-edge tech for an atmo 2-litre in the late 1980's but of course we have a lot more possibilities available to us these days. I think you'll find that the cost of building a full-house Gen 1 will be very similar to the cost of buying a Gen 3 and giving it a basic reco job which will be very similar to the cost of buying a BEAMS and plonking it straight into the bay without touching it otherwise, ie. figure on spending around $2-2.5k. I'd go the Gen 3, you'd only be building the Gen 1 to similar specs anyway and the Gen 3 is a better starting point (forged crank, oil squirters in the block, factory 2-piece sump with windage tray, bigger valves, bigger throttle body, I could go on). They're also easier to find than BEAMS motors and for the same money you could have a minty-fresh reconditioned Gen 3 that you won't have to touch again for a very long time. Just my $0.02 Cheers Matt
I'd also add that the 3rd Gen 3SGE is a better choice than the Beams from an upgrade standpoint. Once a Beams owner gets to the point where they want to upgrade the head parts, they're options are limited due to the variable valve timing. A 3rd Gen 3SGE, on the other hand, will allow the owner to upgrade both cams and adjust the timing in addition to machine shop work.
Cheers guys, thats some solid advice. I think ill look into a gen 3. I was a little torn between it being "original" but the way i'm look at it, if they had access to something that much better when they built it, they would have slapped it in there themselves! Theyre worth very little so its not like its a collectable (although technically a classic ) may as well have some fun and turn it from just a car into something thats really yours. One last question on that matter, does it need engineering as its a different motor than standard? Even so thats not a problem till i actually get to putting it back in the car, plenty to do before then!
Wash your mouth out son Jokes aside, you're right, these aren't a "cult car" where matching numbers are important to resale value, and in any case it's your car, build it to your taste I say. Re. engineering, as far as the RTA is concerned you're just replacing the motor with another one of the same capacity, they wouldn't have a clue about the power difference between a Gen 1 and Gen 3, and it would take a particularly eagle-eyed cop to spot the conversion if you get pulled over, so just file a change of engine number with the RTA and you'll be fine. Since you're giving it ~30% more power though, you might want to think about upgrading the brakes just for your own peace of mind. Oh, and put up a Members Ride thread for your car, we're picture whores here
Breaks are a must. Something is squishy in there i can kick the pedal through the floor at 80kmh and not lock it up. (all the crap on my back seat ends-up up the front though lol) Ill give them a bleed and see how that goes, it still passes rego inspection on the breaks (apparently) so it cant be 'that' bad? But yeah... details, details Will definitely take plenty of pics, big projects i always do that for. Probably wont have it all cleared before the end of the year, theres alot of things happening, but we shall see!
The brake test for the pink slip is a joke, most mechanics don't even put the machine in the car. Your brake fluid may not have been changed in years, you might want to do a full flush and bleed it with new stuff. If the pedal is still spongey I'd be looking at renewing the rubber brake lines, which can go soft and balloon over time. If you want to consider upgrading the calipers and discs when you stick the bigger motor in, there are a bunch of threads here on what fits and what can be made to fit. I bought ST185 calipers for mine.
What sort of cams, compression, headwork etc do you reckon you'd need to get ~25-30% more out of a naturally aspirated Gen 1 Mafix? (I assume its going to be all motor, Alexg hasn't mentioned anything about turbos yet...)
My N/A build from the machine shop for mine was about $5200! Cams reground Bored .20 over 3 angle turbo cut valve job ported and polished head and intake modified oil pump Ferrea valves Titanium valve springs, retainers, and pretty sure valves Probe forged pistons Eagle rods all new gaskets, t-belt, tensioners, etc Might be missing some, that is what I remember!
Interesting.. did you get the machine shop to supply all of those parts as well? 'cause they add margin that way too, cheaper sourcing all the bits yourself and then just having the shop fit them.. Are your titanium valves aftermarket or from a BEAMS motor?
They got everything, but at the time nothing was available. (or couldn't find it) Pistons, and springs and retainers were manufactured. May have been the valves too! Everything had to be sent out and custom made, except the GTE Eagle rods.
You running a Gen 1? If I could go back and start again I'd do a Gen 3 bottom end with a Gen 2 head, get all the niceties of the Gen 3 block and crank and the good sump, and the convenience of parts availability for the Gen 2 top end. C'est la vie, and all that..
gen 3 pistons and a shit ton of head work along with itbs or standalone with a custom manifold and monster intake and throttlebody you'll be 5K in the hole easy for 200hp
Cheers for the replies guys. Id be looking at 25% increase. so 100kw-ish total from the 75kw stock (at wheels). not interested in "big gains" on NA for this project. (so no, no bolt on turbos) I plan on doing this <2k, i already have a few bits, and have some contacts through the rally industry that can hopefully provide some good tricks and possibly mates rates My main goal is to revive my poor, sad car and put a bit more go in it. Enough to be fun on a budget, so to speak. Its already money-pitted me pretty profusely so this will be the last major thing i plan on doing to it, then it should be set for a few years to either have fun with, or put up for someone else to have fun with. If i want any more power, itll be in my gt4 i plan on getting "in the unspecified future" I like the idea of NA power, but thats a two way acronym as it also stands for your price limit being "not applicable" As for the breaks i DEFINITELY agree the hoses would be buggered. 26 yrs old? yeah could be an issue. the fluid is old too, and a bleed through would be the best start. Ill keep a log of everything i do and put up results for it. Itll be a few months as theres some more pressing things to get done though. So until then its foot to the floor in the Paseo! haha.
There's a guy on OzCelica and Toymods who is selling a grey-top BEAMS that he had in an SV21 Camry for $1200, might be worth a look: http://www.ozcelica.com/forum/index...s-3s-bits-and-enkei-rp01s/page__fromsearch__1
