One of the most common questions asked is "What is the difference between the 2 motors?", the other involves putting the GE head on a 3S, 4S or 5S FE block Having recently acquired 2 spare motors I am now stripping them down in an effort to find the bits I want. I'm a noob to these engines so I figure I may as well share what I'm finding and learning. My full story is here: www.st162.net/forum/showthread.php?3376-JDM-TEMS-Corona-162-2-amp-4-door-and-many-more-jdm-oddities/page1 Cylinder block Basically the same with minor changes for the oil cooler/filter attachment. The GTE block has extra oil channels for the turbo and squirters inside which are meant cool the exhaust side of the pistons. Some concern is the way water flows across the motor towards the distributor side, getting hotter and hotter as it moves from cylinder to cylinder. Unlike many motors the water is not free to move around. I have read about modding the block to feed cold water directly into the #3 cylinder jacket as it is well known that cyl 3 & 4 have exaggerated wear and tear. Later engines have nozzles in the block squirting oil at the hot side of the piston and they don't interfere with the supply of oil to the big end bearings as they are fitted with valves which only open at 4000rpm or so. Crankshaft Radically different - The GE versions have an aerodynamic shape and fillets on the journals. The FE looks like a conventional crank and rather disturbingly has 2 grooves on each big end journal where there should be fillets, which is probably where a break would occur. The FE pre 91 crank is also more prone to lose the flywheel as there are only 6 bolts whereas the GE/GTE has 8 larger bolts. Later (91- 3S/4S/5S) cranks use 8 bolts and GE gen1 bolts & pattern. Both crank types are not cross-drilled (there is only one hole in the big end journal) because of the oil fed through holes in the con rods. Oil flow from main journal pickup to big end delivery is nowhere near ideal on either type crank and explained in depth on the Crower crank page (straight shot oiling) http://www.crower.com/ There is a lot one can do to the cranks to improve oil flow and supply to the big end bearings. For those wanting to use the 5S longer stroke crank: 1) Get the journals welded up & re-cut (eliminate those grooves), also gives you you the option to stroke it even more! 5S big end journals are 3mm bigger - you can't use GE rods without modding the crank! 2) Cross drill the big end journal holes & groove the holes. (Not for std bearings/rods) 3) Get it balanced 4) Use ARP etc, High quality flywheel bolts 5) Make sure the piston/valve clearances are correct 6)Try to get the later 8 bolt version Pistons The GE-FE decks (tops) are the same height but the FE pistons are dished and shaped to suit the FE combustion chambers. GE gen1 pistons are flat, GTE pistons are dished and gen2/3 are raised, which gives you a wide choice concerning compression choices. Expect compression to drop with a GE head to a FE block, the crank, rods and flywheel will be the weakest parts in the FE block. However compression will not be as high as a std GE motor. Also the early FE pistons are press-fit, GE pistons are not. Later model FE pistons are all fitted with floating gudgeon pins & clips as on the GE's 5S pistons are 2,5mm shorter than GE or 3/4S-FE pistons If you're after more power it's better to fit higher compression gen2/3 GE pistons & rods which are designed to work with the GE head and are also available to fit the 5S FE block. Gen1, Gen2, FE piston comparison Rings The rings are NOT interchangable, FE rings are wider (more friction - less power) and designed to last longer than GE rings New cars have tiny rings compared to the FE/GE, good for performance but not reliabilty. Smaller thinner rings have increased seal pressure due to the surface area being smaller but won't last as long as thicker rings. The same applies to button type clutch plates Con Rods The con rods in these motors are a concern - they use an idea first used by Suzuki in their TSCC superbike motors which has long since been replaced by better technology. There is a hole in the bearing shell and in the con rod which sprays oil under the piston to help cool it, sounds OK - but in practice the rods are moving at high speed and there is already an "oil storm" or "cloud" inside the crankcase. The oil hole sprays oil at the inlet side of the piston which is the coolest part of the piston and lastly, these holes "rob" the big end bearings of oil just before they need it most (TDC). The result is exaggerated bearing wear at the point of most stress (TDC), and ends up looking like this..... And these came from a good gen2 N/A motor after 140 000km? It's clear to see why these motors are prone to throwing con rods at the radiator! An engine suffering from detonation shows similar wear patterns. The solution is to use rods without holes, and the 5S/GTE bigger oil pump. It seems the guys using Carillo, Crower, Eagle, HKS rods etc have solved this problem without even realizing why there is no hole in the performance rods. Spot the different rods - FE rods are not an option for power or revs as they are very skinny. Note the GE rods also have the beams stamped which changes the molecular structure and makes them even stronger.(same principle as shot peening) Gen3 rods are somewhere between the two types shown, they are light and not as strong as the Gen1/2 type GE/GTE rods Ge vs FE rod bolts, both the pitch and diameter are increased on the GE/GTE Cylinder head The FE head is to the GE as the 4A-FE is to the 4A-GE, it is an "economy" head designed to deliver a balance of power and fuel efficiency. The GE head was taken directly from Superbike engine design in the early 80's with a "Pentroof" chamber design. The FE head has the valves recessed about 5mm and a large portion of each valve is shrouded by the wall around it - not ideal for good flow. Yamaha was involved in the design and production of the GE head, evidently all GE heads are assembled by Yamaha. Most gen1 GE heads have YAMAHA marked on them but there are a few without any makings at all. GE vs FE head - GE has bigger valves at a steeper angle and more room, wilder cams (not interchangable), bigger intake ports. GE gen1 and 2 parts are not interchangable but gen2 and gen3 are. Before you shout "Foul, that's not Gen1!" - here's the gen1 GE head Can you see any differences? - They are all in the ports (bigger), cams and valvetrain (lighter) The later GE heads and Beams heads feature cutouts around the valves to assist flow, something to remember when porting a head. Valve sizes are the same on GE/GTE gen1-3 heads, so no need to buy bigger valves. The valves are different lengths though and can't be swapped as different type shims are employed as well Later 5S heads feature wilder cams, improved manifolds, bigger combustion chambers and better porting, they can be recognized by having more than 7 fins on the front of the head. Head Gaskets All these motors have a problem blowing head gaskets when pushed hard, the bigger the bore the worse problem becomes. (The original 1S motor has a bore of only 80.5mm, 2S is 84mm) The only way around this is to replace the head bolts with studs (-gives better clamping, accurate torquing and wider load spread) and use the best head gasket your money can buy. Gen3 type metal gaskets, Head studs and O-ringed blocks are common in performance motors Head Bolts Where possible try to use ARP studs, studs are stronger and give more even clamping without distorting the bores as much. If money is an issue another alternative is to use head bolts from the Gen2 engines. The heads are bigger and use 10mm Allen keys instead of the 8mm heads which are good at breaking Alllen keys Gen3 heads use special splined bolts, similar to those found in the FE motors Camshafts & buckets The gen1 GE/GTE is unique - you cannot swap cams or buckets with any of the later engines. On FE's you can use later cams for a healthy increase. The GE/GTE buckets changed over the years, gen1 is small (4A size) with a shim on top Gen2 is bigger (3S-FE size) with a shim on top and gen3 has a tiny shim under the bucket but the bucket is the same size as the gen2. You could fit them to a gen2 head but you need to swap the valves and retainers as well. Exhaust headers Some good news, you can swap headers between all Gen1-2 3SGE/FE heads provided the starter clears the exhaust header pipes on gen1 GE gearboxes. Gen3 headers will NOT fit the earlier GE/GTE heads or FE heads The 3S-FE exhaust is a real slug, even the GE exhaust is a big leap forward - Beware as 20yr old GE & GTE manifolds are prone to cracking around the middle cylinders Flywheel bolts Smaller version is 86-89 FE/GE/GTE, bigger version is 90- GE/GTE The crank flange and the seal and housing are bigger too on later GE/GTE cranks. Later 3-5SFE (90-) cranks use 8 bolt flywheels and the GE gen1 type bolts Flywheels GE gen1 flywheel is smaller than the FE/GTE versions and a lot heavier, you will need to change the flywheel when upgrading to a later S54 gearbox or the S53 FE/GTE style box All GTE boxes use a different clutch plate with bigger splines, GE/FE boxes seem to share clutches and pressure plates. 3S-GE gen1 (left) is smaller but heavier than later 5S version on the right, Gen2/3 GE/GTE uses the bigger type flywheel with bigger bolts GE gen1 flywheel is 10mm smaller than GT4, 5S-FE version, ie the starter won't work Anybody experimented with other rods, bearings, rod lengths, stroking? I'd like to hear from you!
Re: FE vs GE motors - what's different? as far as i'm concerned the aluminum bearings are trash. i'll never use another set. trimetal FTW!
Re: FE vs GE motors - what's different? Shouldn't make much difference - If the clearances & pressure are correct? The journals run on an oil film and the bearings are "shims" used to adjust the thickness of the film and also absorb any filings or dirt that can't travel in the oil film out of the journal to ultimately be absorbed by the filter. The bearings will only rub if the oil film breaks down (faulty oil pump, crap oil, blockage etc), large pieces of junk become jammed between the journal and bearing shell (dirty motor, faulty filter) or the rod pressure overcomes/squashes the oil film (detonation, NOS/turbo/nitro etc power increases) or almost unheard of - a fracture in the bearing shell. I've seen many cases where used bearings were fitted into race motors in an emergency and went on to outlive the other "new" bearings. We also often used old bearings to get that extra thou or two which often makes the difference between average and freak motors. Bearings are a good way to "read" what's happening inside a motor and all top race teams have their oil analyzed as well to determine where/what wear is taking place. I forgot to mention that a motor suffering from pre-ignition (detonation) will also cause premature head gasket leaking - be VERY careful when advancing ignition timing or running on crap fuel. I suspect many of the gasket failures recorded on the site where as a result of cheap fuel and too much advance.
firstly... thank you sooooooo much for this! so much useful info!!! secondly... 3sge (8 bolt model) and 5sfe use the same flywheel and clutch (verified by using Exedy part numbers as reference and comparing a 5sfe and 3sge clutch/flywheel side by side).
does that mean i can get a 5th/6th gen's box and just put it on my GE, without swapping clutch/flywheel/pressure plate?
being that the 3sge and 5sfe both use the s53/s54 transmission, as long as the 3 mounts all line up, yes you should be able to mate everything up.
Yes 3S-GE gen1 = 3/4/5S-FE, 8 bolt pattern cranks from 91- Yes you can swap the clutches around No, you can't swap the box without a GT4 (gen1 only) or 4/5S 8 bolt flywheel Good news is there are now a/m flywheels which fit both GE crank types. 90- GE crank has bigger bolts Flywheels compared - http://www.st162.net/forum/showthre...ore-jdm-oddities&p=55265&viewfull=1#post55265 Further reading - http://www.st162.net/forum/showthread.php?3376-JDM-TEMS-Corona-162-2-amp-4-door-and-many-more-jdm-oddities&p=48124&viewfull=1#post48124
I just spent 2 hours (with breaks :ewink) reading and digesting this excellent write up. Hey Stig, surely shims on top are easier for adjustment and where the hell is that beams 'stamp' ??
You're right Spidey, shims on top of the bucket would make for easier adjutments, but you can run higher lift cams with a shim-under-bucket setup because the cam lobe won't flick the shim out. Re. beam stamping, if you go back to that picture of the two rods, the one on the right has an indent stamped into either side of the beam of the rod (ie. the bit joining the big and little ends. An engineer could probably bang on about the reasons for doing this for hours, but the long and short of it is that stamping the rod beams makes them stronger.
Correct I'm switching to the shim under type for safety reasons, besides once the shims are set properly they don't need adjusting for a couple of years. Shim on top is quick and easy but they are known to shoot out and wreck heads, esp when the cam has been ground back and the shims are thicker than usual
