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ADM to JDM 3S-GE conversion Prob. it's long but please read

Discussion in '3sge' started by Jester, Jun 25, 2008.

  1. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!:

    Hello all, Anyone from other Celica and Toyota forums such as rollaclub, toymods.net and ozcelica.com may know me, but for those of you who don't I am the unluckiest Toyota owner on the face of the planet, I won't go into too much depth on my stories but if you wanna know search the other sites and you'll find detailed info in other threads as this thread will be long enough as it is, I may post something in my introduction post, now down to business.

    The Story:
    I Have a 1987 Celica SX (GT-R in US) and recentlyish swapped in a JDM 3S-GE Gen 1 in place of my ADM item as I thought and was told by many it was shagged, after I pulled it apart I found it wasn't but I won't go into that here, anyway, the engine was installed 8 weeks ago and still doesn't run right, it idles way too high at 2100RPM and has no acceleration, it'll rev slowly up to 3000RPM but past that dies right off (there are videos on YouTube just search "3S-GE No Acceleration" submitted by sntjester).

    I kept the ADM intake Manifold as it has to pass a roadworthy and without the EGR system I can't do that here in OZ, as far as I know though these engines are exactly the same, their only difference is the EGR pollution control system and the waterway junction on the left hand side of the engine as ADM junctions have the BVSV's for the EGR system attached to it. So basically I got a Jap block with Jap T-VIS and oz manifolds (exhaust Manifold are Genie extractors).
    Now I saw on a post someone mentioned the JDM engines may have different timing to them and I’ve had a few people say hey, that timing could be way out, even though 3 or 4 mechanics, including the local Toyota dealer said it's right and they don't know what the go is so my last hope has been enthusiasts like myself, now I don't know as much as I’d like but I’m learning more every day.

    Background Info
    My little beast failed me one day before work back in about September October 07' I think, just had no power, barely turned over, seriously it was only running on two cylinders.
    Now before the engine swap when I was trying to diagnose the problem with the previous engine I swapped the plugs (cylinder 4 plug had no gap previously) and it turned over fine and accelerated fine but had no compression on cylinder two, the butterfly valve plate from the T-VIS came off and was prying my valves open releasing pressure but I didn't know that then, so all sensors and stuff were working before hand but once this engine went in, there was simply no love.

    The Work:
    I have had many good and helpful ideas from people on various forums and many have failed, below I’ve written a list of what's been done (don't be scared of how big it is).

    Fuel regulator
    Cold start injector
    AFM (Air Flow Meter)
    All Vacuum Lines
    T-VIS Actuator (that bracket thingy with the little tank)
    Timing Belt
    Water Pump
    Water temp sensor
    Ignition Coil
    Throttle Position Sensor (swapped, not new)
    ECU (off a 1989 Model though, will this matter, starts the same, does throw up codes, the stock one doesn't)
    Oil (Duh!)
    Drained old Fuel and put in 15ltrs of High Oct with a booster

    Throttle body
    Air Filter (K&N Panel)
    Injectors with new seals
    Other little sensors and stuff

    I've been over the Vacuum lines 14 times already, cannot find the leak that may be causing high idle and all hoses are fit snug and correctly placed.
    Probably others I just can’t think of right now.

    :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!:
  2. mephtar

    mephtar Well-Known Member

    if you post a pic of your dizzy, i can telly you if your timing is close to stock or way off. The JDM ECU's bog down USDM engines for some reason I read, it might be possible that usdm bog down JDM's too. Have you adjusted the idle screw to try to fix your idle? Have you tryed a new ECU/ Checked to make sure your AFM and O2 sensors are working to spec?
  3. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    by idle screw i imagine you mean on the throttle, yea it's all the way down, won't go no lower. and to check my dizzy do you want the 1st cylinder at TDC?

    Oh and ECU and AFM have been changed, as stated above
  4. ST165-2765

    ST165-2765 Well-Known Member Donated!

    Have you checked the timing belt to see if the exhaust cam has jumped a tooth.

    The intake cam drives the distributor. If the intake cam and crankshaft are correctly aligned the timing will appear to be set correctly no matter where your exhaust cam is so if your exhaust cam is out by a tooth or 2 or 20..... it will make no difference to the timing. It will however make a huge difference in performance

    JDM ADM USDM heads and blocks should all be pretty much the same. You kept the ADM intake manifold so I would run your old ADM ECU.

    I hope you put loc-tite on the JDM T-VIS butterfly valve screws :mad:

    Only ever seen 1 T-VIS that had all its butterfly valves and screws.
  5. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    Wow, someone else aware of that problem with the T-VIS. that's what went wrong on the original engine, bitch of a thing to happen innit, don't worry, made sure they were down tight before the mech put it in, this JDM engine only has about 65,000km's on it, barely even worn in.
  6. Mafix

    Mafix Owner Staff Member Administrator Donated!

    i've never had an issue with any TVIS system
  7. ST165-2765

    ST165-2765 Well-Known Member Donated!

    Your not trying hard enough :roll:

    Out of the 4 engines I have torn appart.
    -1 was missing 1 out of the 2 screws that hold the butterfly valve in the rod.
    -1 was missing both screws that hold the butterfly valve in the rod and also the butterfly valve.
    -my 3rd engine sucked #2 cylinder butterfly valve into the combustion chamber while I was driving. Luckilly it made it past the valve and rattled around in the combustion chamber and did a pretty good job of cleaning all the carbon out of the bottom of the head.
    -#4 engine is my old All Trac engine and it still has all its butterfly valves and screws.

    Don't know about the T-VIS currently in my Trac
  8. sprey16

    sprey16 Well-Known Member

    glad you made it , jester , arent we just a lovely group :p
  9. dan1_721

    dan1_721 Guest

    Id the cams are set right, and the dizzy is set right, then try advancing the timing a little and see if it improves. The JDM motor does run more advanced timing. What ECU are you running? The series 2 ECU may cause more problems, as from memory the series 2 motor has larger injectors. Therefore the ECU may be opening the injectors for a shorter time than the s1 item would, and you wil be short on fuel. Chuck the s1 ECU back in, advance the timing a little and see if it improves.

    Also this could be an issue with the injectors themselves. Are you running the injectors of the new motor? try swapping for your old ones, of course with the s1 ECU. Seriously, it probably wont run right without the correct ECU...
  10. Dman_23

    Dman_23 Guest

    Exactly, the 86-87 ECU uses a 1 wire o2 sensor while the 88-89 uses a 4 wire sensor. There is also an EGR temp sensor on the 88-89 ECU that is not present on the 86-87. The two ECUs cannot be swapped directly.

    BTW the ECU is very rarely the problem assuming it's the correct one for the engine. So swapping it usually won't fix anything.
  11. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    Here are thie pics of my timing, turned the Pulley til the mark aligned with 0 and all picture were taken from that position, nothing moved.

    Pulley http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll2/sntjester/DSC01127.jpg

    Cylinder 1 (next to the belt) http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll2/sntjester/DSC01128.jpg

    Dizzy position http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll2/sntjester/DSC01130.jpg

    Cam Positions http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll2/sntjester/DSC01137.jpg

    Also today ai tried to replace the fuel filter and i have a couple questions.
    1) how the F*#k do you get that bottom line off, it seems impossible, i tried and tried and had to stop because it started rounding the bolt/nut :eek: .
    2) there's a rubber line coming out the firewall near the filter, should this be attached to something?
    3) after i mover the Charcoal canister out of the way i noticed the bottom line goes into the chassis behind the wheelarch, is it supposed to be hooked up to another line in there because mine just came straight out with the metal hose bit still attached :confused: .

    also yeah i heard about the different wirings for the 89' ECU O2 sensor, i'm not worried about it. but what's this talk about a series 2 3S-GE?? i know there are 4 Generations of the 3S-GE but haven't ever heard anything about series so i don't know what Series it is, it's a JDM Gen 1 that's as much as i know. Also i'm using the original ADM Injectors that have been cleaned eith new seals, onw of the JDM Injectors had a broken tip so couldn't use the whole set and i wanted the whole set to be from the same engine.
    Old ECU is back in.

    Here's 2 Video's of the Car running, Sprey know's what it's like, he led me here, thanks mate.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-1JSTlr ... re=related

    the second vids the better one, the odd farting sound when i hit the accelerator at 20sec and 32sec is from the AFM.
  12. dan1_721

    dan1_721 Guest

    There is a series 1 and 2 st162 celica.

    The series 2 have alot of differences....Diff grille, taillights,wheels, rear struts, some wiring, but importantly...

    There are engine differences. Both are 1st gen 3SGE, but different ECU, loom, o2 sensor, exhaust manifold,EGR,etc,

    Having a JDM motor makes things even worse as its a crossbreed of the 2!

    Seen your threads on Toymods,ozcelica etc.

    Hoping you can get this sorted soon.

    Get yourself a Haynes manual, a timing light, pull off the upper timing cover and get to work resetting the ignition AND cam timing from scratch. Sounds like your mechs are tards...
  13. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    I got a Haynes manual, when i first got it it was a tonne of help but the more detailed info you need the less help it seems to be.
    as for the timing, i posted pics of my settings above, I moved the mark to 0 degrees, cylinder one was at TDC, Dizzy pointing straight up and the Cams look right to me for timing. Am i Wrong?
    Also advanceing the timing, that's just adjusting the Dizzy yeah? sorry for the noob question.

    Also is there a way to tell what series my JDM is?
    The injectors look exactly the same.
  14. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member


    Just started her for the first time after puttin the Fuel filter in, last night it was too late, and she actually revved properly, responded right up to 5000RPM thn died :( realised i didn't have the fuel cap on, turned her over again and she's semi responsive, han rev higher now but not responsive, as in you depress the throttle lightly, it'll accelerate, hard and there's no love.

    New vid up momentarily

    Doesn't rev to 5000RPM anymore, musta been a one time thing, goes up to 4000RPM but cuts off just like before, Fuel filter must have been cutting off a some fuel, still idles at 2000RPM
    New Vid is up
  15. mephtar

    mephtar Well-Known Member

    if you reset your ecu (unplug the negative cable for a minute from the battery) does it respond any differently?
  16. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    Ok so i had a guy who i met off Toymods.net (Da Horse/Huy) come look at my car over the weekend, after replacing more hoses, finding my spark plugs were incorrectly gapped and setting the Dizzy and TPS to optimal positions, we've now , according to him, narrowed it down to a fairly severc vacuum leak somewhere, now my problem is i don't know where all the Hoses are or whether there even in the correct position as my Haynes manual only shows a diagram for the EGR lines arounf the inlet and i was told by Da Horse that they aren't my problem coz they're all in the right position and all in good condition, since most of them are replaced items, so now i have to search out every other vacuum line.

    Does anyone have like a list or diagram or even a good clear idea of where all the lines are?
    I thought I did but i must be missing something.

    And unplugging the battery for a while and letting the ECU reset does nothing. runs no different
  17. Jester

    Jester Well-Known Member

    I have a question about the fuel delivery, the main fuel supply comes from a large line from the Filter and a second smaller line comes into the fuel regulator straight from the tank?

    Where the Main fuel line (Image1) hooks up there's this thing that's bell like and it screws in and has a hollow center (Image 2) like a banjo bolt but it's got a bell top, the thing that concerns me is there's no hole horizontally for the fuel to get in (Image 3 and Image 4), am i right assuming that this is what's wrong or is there some mystical way unbeknown to us mere mortals that fuel is being delivered?

    Image 1: http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll2/ ... C01175.jpg
    Image 2: http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll2/ ... C01174.jpg
    Image 3: http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll2/ ... C01178.jpg
    Image 4: http://i284.photobucket.com/albums/ll2/ ... C01177.jpg

    I'm told the thing i'm referring to is the damper but i don't see how fuel get from the main line into the rail if the smaller line i was referring to is a line OUT and back into the tank
  18. ST165-2765

    ST165-2765 Well-Known Member Donated!

    The big line send fuel to the rail after it has gone through the filter and the pulsation damper. The little line returns the unused fuel back to the tank.
  19. rye

    rye Well-Known Member Donated!

    I believe there's a gap big enough for the fuel to get around that on the banjo bolt.
  20. ST165-2765

    ST165-2765 Well-Known Member Donated!

    mystical fuel deliver for mere mortals 101

    Look UP........ the inside of the nut is a larger diameter than the threaded tube that goes into the fuel rail.


    Note the special copper washer with spacers that goes under the nut and on top of your fuel line. A normal copper washer goes under the fuel line and on top of the fuel rail.

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