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How to make your 4G handle

Discussion in 'Suspension / Steering' started by Mafix, Feb 10, 2007.

  1. Mafix

    Mafix Owner Staff Member Administrator Donated!

    These are a list of basic tuning you can do on the 4g chassis to improve the handling. There are more out there but these cover the large majority and are good for moderate builds.

    Upgrading Front Sway Bar

    Sway bars do this in laymans terms: they add progressive spring rate based on load. keep that in mind.

    FWD/AWD
    On the FWD/AWD models there is no need to upgrade the front one at all. As it is designed, with so many bends and such a long fulcrum it might be netting 20lbs/inch if that. any replacement for the front might be a touch better but ultimately a waste of money. you'll notice that the upgrade is smaller than the stock one. There is a few things to note here. if you are autocrossing, lose the front bar completely. if you are road racing (weight sensitive) upgrade the front bar to a whiteline or similar. Road racers can't spare the weight of the frame connectors in their class.

    Upgrading Rear Sway Bar
    FWD
    in my research and findings and such; here are my conslusions. the stock rear sway bar isn't doing a damn thing. i think my pinky finger has more rigidity in it. i can literally bend the sway bar like a coat hanger. the whiteline one, 18mm, while being a hell of an upgrade from the 13mm stock one, i still don't think is enough at stock weight. because of the bends in the bar between the mount points, it is loosing strength. in my research, there is no other chassis that can be substituted either. you can mount and install the 22mm st182/st184 bar but it is 2 inches longer on the fulcrum side, which makes it about the same as the whiteline bar. The rear sway bar increases spring rate high enough that the car will actually rotate around it's center much easier.

    AWD
    the same as above, however...
    since you have the 4wd going, i would be very careful on using a single rear bar without a better front bar.

    Upgrading Springs
    The stock springs do what every stock spring does and that's give a good balance between performance, ground clearance, and comfort. While being good at all these, it also means that it excels on none of them. Intrax, King, and Eibach make a very nice upgrade to both versions of the 4th gen. Intrax giving a more aggressive 1.6"drop and Eibach giving a 1" drop. these help level the car, give it a lower center of balance, and reduce drag on the underbody. all in all the basics of improving the handling. you'll want to look for progressive springs not set rate ones if you want to keep the stock strut design (or limited by racing sanctions).

    spring preload

    Upgrading to Sleeve Style Coilover - fwd and awd
    for our cars i believe the conversion is for a nissan sentra (or a sunny in areas). mid 90's fwd models. You have to be very mindful of spring rates that you are getting and proper mounting is a must. personally i HATE the way most of these fit. be extremely careful on this stuff.

    Upgrading to Coilover setups - fwd and awd
    While being very rare and mostly custom made for our cars these have other benefits than just springs. you can adjust your ride height and in most cases adjust the spring rates (easily swapped with many choices from other companies). this is good because you can weight balance the car. coilovers are typically used to "slam" cars which is not at all what they are meant for. weight balancing the entire vehicle by using ride height and spring rates is the key to a good balance and excellent cornering. the rare and other nice thing about these is you can offset the car for circle tracks, rally, drag, and such. these also come in progressive and set rate versions. these will vary depending on the vehicle use. the st182/st184 fwd work for fwd models and the st185 work for the awd models. Megan, D2, and Tein are some of the companies to look at. Cieka make custom setups specifically for your chassis. Cedric (the owner) was also a member here.

    Upgrading the Shocks/Struts - fwd and awd
    Well first off we all have struts. the fronts are cartridge style and the rears are sealed. there are a lot of manufacturers for these but the better ones are KYB, Koni, and Tokico. there are also different types like gas, oil, sealed or open, adjustable and so on. these will vary depending on the application. there is also a way to convert the rear struts to a cartridge style. the advantage of this is you can have all 4 adjustable without spending a lot of money like you would with coilovers. you'll need a stock set of front and a stock set of rears to make the rear cartridge style. drill a small hole in the bottom of the rear shocks to drain all the oil/gas out and then cut the top off as close to the top weld as possible. on the front set remove the cartridge, cut the top off as close as possible to the spring seat. then measure them out to the same depth as the fronts and weld them together.

    Upgraded Suspension Bushings - fwd and awd
    DO NOT change any sperical bushing out with a poly one. get new spherical bushings. there isn't anything better than those.

    Of course the stock rubber bushings are going to get worn out. why not upgrade them with polyurethane? the handling on these cars are great stock, even better modded, but when you start to notice that there is a bit of wheel travel or just not enough there you'll want to look for something else. bushings are easy to do and readily available for these. these will reduce wheel travel in the suspension, tighten the entire car up, and last much longer than rubber. the best place i've found for these is toyheadauto.com.

    awd only
    Change the cradle bushings to the solid nylon ones. Be sure to poly fill the rear diff mount or replace it with solid aluminum. these are 2 major loose areas on the stock awd chassis.

    Upgraded Motor Mounts - fwd and awd
    Why is this in suspension? because if the mounts are toast you get sloppy response, banging around, harder to shift, premature axle wear, and wheel hop. speed-source makes a very nice polyurethane motor mount insert for the 4th gen that will never break, rot out, or allow the play that the stock rubber mounts do. Xiiimotorsports make a full kit with all 4 mounts.

    Upgraded Engine Cradle Bushings - fwd and awd
    these help tighten up the front end on our cars. the stock engine cradle is bolted to the car using rubber bushings. again these 20 year old bushings are more than likely to be worn out and not holding the cradle correctly. this will cause premature motor mount wear and possibly damage the core support. speed-source make aluminum bushings to go in place of the stock ones.

    Engine Struts - fwd and awd
    if the rest of the engine torque dampening techniques don't have enough balls then you could get a universal torque strut kit and install it. i don't think that we would need this but there is always the exception. these will further help reduce the wheel hop in the front. (fyi i don't need one of these)

    Upgraded Endlinks - fwd and awd
    Now the stock endlinks do a good job for what they are. but the are inadequate for racing applications. these are fairly easy to assemble and can be made to be adjustable. with adjustable ones you can preload the sway bars (don't) or clearence other items under the car. Changing them to heim joints will be best. This will really help control what the sway bar is doing. trying to make the endlinks be at a 110-70 degree angle is also a good idea. the length of the endlink does not matter if you are using custom swaybars.

    Strut Braces - fwd and awd
    one of the single most important and best modifications you can make to our cars. notice how the strut towers are nearly vertical? this is good for rebound and rally type racing but generally bad for anything else. a rear strut brace will help prevent the body from flexing in harder cornering as well as stiffen the entire chssis. the front stock strut brace does a fairly good job but even that isn't enough. you can add another bar as a crossmember to further tighten up the front suspension giving it triangulation. Which is always a plus.

    Roll Cages - fwd and awd
    for those that need them and only in the case of real properly installed ones, these will eliminate 99% of all body roll, chassis flex, and add the protection of a cage. there are several styles out there that need to be considered for installing. the simplest of these is a 4 point rear bar setup. the most advanced are the halo 8+ point systems.

    Frame Connectors - fwd and awd
    just another thing to add to the weight of our cars but in certain applications a must have. just like all unibody cars we have the chassis flex problem. this will help eliminate this as well as reduce body roll. I noticed a huge inprovement in the chassis with mine.

    Aerodynamics - fwd and awd
    the aerodynamics of the stock 4g are not bad but do have a lot of room for improvement. first the front lip isn't strong enough or low enough to do a damn thing (non alltrac). the side mirrors are the single most unaerodynamic thing in the world (sourced from TRD). the stock rear wing is more than enough. the front end will lift over 130mph (non alltrac).

    Front Splitter - fwd and awd


    Upgraded Brakes - fwd and awd
    there are a lot of options out there for brakes on our cars. you can have the stock setup, stock size with upgraded rotors and pads, rear disk conversions, big brakes, the list never really ends. first thing i would do is change the brake lines over to braided stainless steel. this will help the pedal from sponging. also upgrade the fluid to DOT4 which has a much higher boiling point. the options from there will depend on what you are doing with your car.

    Weight Reduction - fwd and awd
    another one of the basic handling tricks to do that will dramatically improve the handling of the car. lose the weight and go faster. now there is a point at which you will harm the suspension more than help it and this is something you'll need to play with.

    Upgraded Wheels - fwd and awd
    so easy and looks good too. changing the factory 13-15 inch wheel to something bigger and better will increase the handling of the car in every aspect. general rule of thumb is to never exceed the stock tire diameter and stay under 17's. anything over a 17 is just rotational weight and not a performance gaining modification. plus who the hell can fit those anyways! be sure to get the correct offset and width. your tire contact patch will change with the rim width

    Upgraded Tires - fwd and awd
    only the most important part of the suspension system. the tires should be carefully chosen to fit your application and your needs.

    Uppgraded Front Differential
    FWD
    the bottom line of this is that the stock open diff sucks. therre is no doubt there. any upgrade is better than what you got. there are a ton of options for whatever trans you might be using. be sure and research what you are buying and be sure it will work in your application.

    AWD
    once you get to a certain level in the car you'll notice that one front tire always seems to spin on a really hard turn or a launch. the helical front diff is still in the works but at least it will be available.

    Upgraded Viscous Coupling - awd only
    There is a bit of debate still about which is best, but a properly working VC is a must. I've seen blown units in action which makes your car effectively a 1 wheel drive.

    Upgraded Rear Differential - awd only
    One of the best upgrades out there are to upgrade to the st205 torsion rear diff.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2016
  2. jwagner162

    jwagner162 Well-Known Member Donated!

    -im still not understanding the fixation with the rear camber. to fix the understeer issue you need to camber the front. your allowed -2.25-2.5 deg from factory on cars with the adjusment.

    -i think were getting oversteer confused with braking into the corner. theres almost no reason to camber the rear of a fwd drive car. it can always "pull" itself straight. if your braking into/in the turn your loosing the ass because the wieght is on the front and the rear wheels have locked and lost traction. thats the 180 in the blink of an eye bit. scrub your speed while your straight and set a good angle, roll the entry, the gun it as soon as posible. the car will always pull itself out straight and the ass will never come around on exit.

    -if it were rwd and truly oversteering, it would be possible to "push" the rear out on exit from being on the gas.

    -the idea with camber would be to set the car up so when you on your hardest corner the outside wheels are at 0 deg (under load). this gives you the largest tread patch. the rear is much much lighter so takes less camber. too much neg camber and you still have a neg deg under cornering meaning the tread patch is smaller.

    -think im nuts? take a look at the v8 super cars. rwd roadcourse.....waaay more front camber.

    -quick edit: ill admit, if your needing to run -2.5ish deg front camber then you probably should start thinking about rear camber, as your entry speed will be much higher.
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2012
  3. Mafix

    Mafix Owner Staff Member Administrator Donated!

    this. i can't even think of a modern fwd car that has independent suspension (i.e. not a corolla) that does not have well over -1.0 degrees rear camber. it's there to compensate for body roll and chassis flex. even my car suffers from this. i've found on my car, keep that in mind, that i NEED -1.4 to -1.6 degrees rear camber to prevent oversteer. which is no more than the rear end being too damn light and the tires giving me the f' u.
    as for front camber, i find that that is far more dependant on caster and power. i can't run a lot of front camber. the torque steer is so bad it's not even funny.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 1, 2012
  4. racerb

    racerb Well-Known Member

    Here are a few pics of my rear suspension set-up, including home-built Koni coilovers, a 18mm Whiteline swaybar, and my custom made rear camber-plates.........Oh yeah and the late model Celica adjustable lower control arm, which will take the place of the cam adjusters.

    [​IMG]
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  5. racerb

    racerb Well-Known Member

    Here are a couple better shots of the swaybar and coilover set-up.......

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  6. humble2

    humble2 Well-Known Member Donated!




    I have a question about engine cradle bushings. what does it mean by Engine cradle??? sorry but my first time hearing the word cradle for a car. please explain, and On speed-source i only see thing for the 3sgte i have 3sge...

    thank you
     
  7. racerb

    racerb Well-Known Member

    The engine cradle is the engine support which runs front to rear in the engine bay and actually supports the fr/rr of the engine. Yes the Speed-Source bushing kit will fit all the ST161,162,165 chassis since the engine support is basically the same on all them. I actually have a 161 GT that I'm building along side the GTS racecar project......

    racerb :)
     

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